The Messy Truth about Indie Podcasting & Burnout with Guest Interviewer Taina Brown

What happens when the host gets interviewed? In this special episode, Nicole hands the mic to friend, coaching colleague, and Messy Liberation podcast co-host Taina Brown — and the result is one of the most honest, wide-ranging conversations yet. From the behind-the-scenes chaos of launching a podcast to the theological roots of rest as resistance, Nicole opens up about what she's learned, what's surprised her, and what's coming next for Just Rest and for her own life. If you've ever wondered what a burnout coach actually believes about rest — and whether she walks her own talk — this one's for you.

What we talked about in this episode:

• What it actually felt like to finally launch a podcast years in the making
• The messy, imperfect reality of building workflows behind the scenes
• Why irregular release cadence hasn't hurt the show
• How guests have expanded Nicole's own understanding of burnout
• The surprising double-edged sword of doing work you're passionate about
• The role of COVID in reshaping how people think about work and burnout
• How Nicole's background as a clergy person and interfaith practitioner informs her approach to rest
• Rest practices Nicole has adopted — or deepened — from her guests
• Why burnout is not a personal failure — it's a systemic one
• The invisible labor carried by people socialized as women and how it compounds burnout
• Why you cannot productivity hack your way out of exhaustion
• Nicole's Friday screen-free practice and the joy of staring out a window while it snows
• What's coming in Season 2
• Nicole's upcoming year of nomadic living — and why she's doing it

Organization(s) doing good in the world:

New American Welcome Center (Champaign-Urbana): https://nawc.universityymca.org/
Amica Center for Immigrant Rights: https://amicacenter.org

Chapters:

00:00 Introduction to Just Rest and Taina Brown
04:27 Grounding breath
05:26 The Journey of Podcasting: From Idea to Reality
08:54 The Messy Start to Just Rest
13:40 Letting Go of Perfectionism in Podcasting
17:39 Expanding Ideas about Burnout
19:53 The Dual Nature of Passion: A Double-Edged Sword
22:21 Theological Perspectives on Burnout and Rest
25:29 The Radical Nature of Rest
30:38 Seasonal Rhythms and Personal Practices
36:25 Understanding Burnout: It's Not Your Fault
42:44 Naming Priorities in Planning
45:14 The Weight of Perfectionism
47:43 Embracing Rest in Nature
50:58 Supporting Immigrant Rights Groups
52:46 Plans for the Pod and Nomadic Living

CONNECT WITH GUEST INTERVIEWER TAINA BROWN:

Website: https://www.ifthenand.org/

Messy Liberation Podcast: https://messyliberation.com/

CONNECT WITH NICOLE HAVELKA

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Transcript

1:21

Hello, Rest Rebels. I am so glad that you are here and listening. Welcome to Just Rest, where burned out change makers come to remember they're not alone. Here you'll get permission to rest without guilt and inspiration for showing up without burning out. And I think today will be particularly inspiring. This is going to be a little bit different of an episode than usual. Not that there is a usual necessarily around here just yet. We haven't been doing that that long. The person you hear laughing along with me is Taina Brown, who is uh a friend and a coaching colleague and a former program manager termed strategy whiz, and boy, is that true, who helps leaders and their teams be their best selves so they can do good work. So for over 15 years, Taina's worked with professionals across Industries, helping them get unstuck, beat burnout, a topic we talk a lot about here, and overcome imposter syndrome. And as a personal and professional development coach and facilitator, she pulls from her training on driving strategic innovation, somatic CBT methods, and values-based coaching to provide experiences that really accommodate and honor the entirety of a person's experience. And again, I can affirm that as Someone who's been in coaching groups uh with her. And when she's not working, she enjoys getting messy in the kitchen. We talk about making bread a lot, uh writing, and traveling with her wife as well. And a very, very good question asker, which is why I have her here. She is turning the tables on me at my request and interviewing me today. Welcome, Taina. So glad you're here. Thank you. I'm so excited as you were talking about me and making me squirm in my chair. It's always so weird having other people um share your like, you know, your work or whatever. But I remembered or that I forgot to add that I co-host the Messy Liberation podcast with Becky Mollenkamp. I always forget to add that. Poor Becky, she's like, what is going on with Taina? and it was in the we'll put it in the show notes. So I'm also a listener of the Messy Liberation podcast, which I adore that Taina co-hosts with um our mutual friend and colleague, Becky Mollenkamp. Yay. So who was on the pod earlier just a few episodes ago, as a matter of fact. So she's hopefully known by the community here of Rest Rebels. Yes, I'm so excited to have this conversation with you, to be the one to ask you questions. I love asking questions and having uh deep, thoughtful conversations with people. And I feel like that's generally how it goes when you and I are in the same room together talking. It turns into deep, thoughtful conversations. So I'm ready when you are. Just let me know. sounds good. So the way I usually start before we dive into questions is to take a deep breath. Would it be okay for us to do that? And then you can dive right in with whatever you're planning to to ask me and you can make me squirm a little bit after that, right? Yeah. All right. Let's do a little bit of a deep breath. So um invite you to maybe push the air out of your lungs a little bit, making space. And then taking an inhale. Might even pause at the top of that inhale and then exhale, make that as long and slow, as complete as feels good to you. I know that makes me feel calmer, more centered, and hope the listeners did that little deep breath with us as well. yeah, it definitely helped me feel settled, more settled. Yeah, thank you for that. um So I know that you have been planning this podcast for a while. I have been privy to back end conversations that your audience might not know about or have heard in the planning process and in the dreaming up phase and all of that. And so The first question I want to ask you is just how are you feeling about all of it? Like, this was just a dream, you know, however long ago and now we're here. So how does it feel? Yeah. my gosh. my first response is like, I love podcasting. Like it's I you know, I thought I would like it. I thought I would be reasonably good at it given some of my professional background and other things that I've done. But um it has been such a blast. I will also say that it it did feel like, my gosh, this really long. Um, and this is and I'm saying this metaphor as someone who's actually never been pregnant, but like, you know, like this long pregnancy of an idea that finally came into and then it came really fast, you know. Then then the labor was really quick and it happened really fast. But the the dreaming and the ideating, I think, for what this podcast would be did take a really long time. And I had actually had, I'm not sure if you even know this part that. I had actually had conversations off and on with different co-hosts. Like I had talked like years ago, like I had talked to a couple of different people about the possibility of doing other versions of a podcast, not this. Um, and that for whatever reason, there was just for a variety of reasons, they just didn't come to fruition. There was nothing bad. It was just like, oh, that was just not the right thing at the right time. And then it was probably a full, it might even be almost two years or a year and a half before. this podcast launched in January, that I had an idea. I was literally driving my car, like of a visual of what I was doing. And I was like, that's the thing I can do. Because what I really wanted to do was bring my like full self into something in a way that I hadn't, I think, before I I really felt like I wanted to not segment too much of myself. So As you know, people who listen to this podcast before that I bring in my background and training as a clergy person. And so we talk about theology, we talk about um, we talk about rest, we talk about systems, like you and I all, you know, and what what systems create the burnout and the exhaustion and the other things that are going on in our lives. Um we ask probing questions, which is also one of my favorite things to do, and really go deep in. Into this topic. And it was really important to me that it's also practical. So that there's also by the end, I'm hoping that everybody is getting little bits of wisdom from my guests. And that has definitely happened like beyond my wildest dreams because I've just had really great guests. That's not surprising. Really good people who are smart and funny and who are trying to do the work of taking care of themselves. Yeah. And you're a great conversationalist. So it just makes so much sense. I remember when you first kind of floated the idea of doing a podcast, I was like, yeah, of course. Nicole loves talking with people and just engaging people in that way and just being open and creating spaces where you can have those moments and where other people can have those moments as well. So was it everything you thought it was going to be? Did anything surprise you? Did anything surprise me? I mean, the this wasn't a surprise and also was a surprise, just how much work it is. The it has been messy. That's one of our I know that's one of your favorite words. Like it has been a so messy. and such a good learning experience, like a giant learning curve, even though I hung around with the Feminist Podcast Collective, which Becky curates. That space, I hung around and went to a ton of workshops and things. And I learned, talked to a lot of other podcasters about how to do this. So I felt pretty well prepared, probably better prepared than for anything I've done, honestly, in recent memory, anyway, because I'm I'm definitely a person who has the capacity to just try something and throw spaghetti at the wall. But for some reason, with this, I took more time with it, which I think benefited it like the. The focus, the the amount of focus I have on the podcast is definitely better because I did that preliminary work and it'll continue to to grow in that way, I think too. But I was not prepared entirely for how messy it was and how hard getting the systems in place was because this was both a good thing, like you know, I did a crowdfunding effort to get a professional launch of the podcast. Mm-hmm. that took longer than I expected. Like I learned a lot. By the way, I learned a lot about crowdfunding in this because I had never done it before. But I crowdfunded for it. Um, and that took longer than expected, which meant that I didn't have a I had none, no episodes pre-recorded. I recorded the three that dropped on January 1st, like in a week. It was bananas. So now you're listening. was a busy week. uh know, so I had to hurry up. Now, because I had help at that point, like I had someone who was editing and like the production part of it was easier for me. And then what I didn't what I didn't do was raise enough money to be able to continue to pay her. So I had to take over, like I had all her templates and all of that, which made it easier, but I had to then figure out, okay, what is this workflow for me? And it's getting better. I mean, I've actually automated a lot of stuff, as you know, because you experienced it, like automated now a lot of things that with guests and onboarding them. And so I only only have to customize like two emails or something. At one point I was sending them all, all the reminders, all the things like manually, which I knew I didn't have to do, but I hadn't figured out the system for how to do that yet. And the behind the scenes stuff has been. Абсолютно the hardest thing I've done since starting a business Yeah, yeah, it's like, it's like an iceberg, right? Like, there's the part that people see, which is like such a small percentage of the amount of work that actually goes into it. And then there's like, the planning, the prep, the pre-production, the post-production, like, then the like, trying to get engagement and trying to get listeners, like, it's a lot, it's a lot. think people assume, oh, it's a podcast, you're just talking to people, you just push record and that's it. But There's so many, you're new to like audio technology and that kind of uh world, there's a lot of also just tools and software that you need to learn. And there are tools obviously that are easier than others, but it can still be a little bit of a learning curve. So yeah, it's a lot of work to put in I don't remember what the exact statistic is, but I just remember reading somewhere about the percentage of podcasts that like, don't make it past their first year and it was like something well, like just far greater than I thought it was. Yes. Yeah. hearing different statistics. I heard 10, like so this'll be episode 11. So or then someone else just this past week said it's 11. I don't so I feel like I'm at the place now where it's like, okay, I've made it through the worst part of it is what my hope is anyway. And I yeah. Yeah. They were messy, and you know the The learning that I had from that, Taina's, and I know this is something we talk about a lot in general, is that I just let I really had to walk my talk and just say, you know what, this is gonna be imperfect. I didn't always hit the cadence I wanted to with the release dates. I I did a solo episode, which I didn't plan to do just because it was easier than you know, scheduling and onboarding with someone because At the same time that I was doing this, I also had an influx of some new clients, which and like so all of that converged at some point. And I'm like, it there aren't enough hours in the day to do all of this. And I'm not gonna stay up all night doing it because frankly my body doesn't cope with that anymore, or really ever. But I I mean that is probably the I mean That is probably the biggest learning and maybe I hope the thing a takeaway that people have even from this conversation is like do your thing and let it be messy. And like it has honestly, like podcasts, some podcasters will tell you like you have to have a release every week or you have to have it or your cadence has to be like rock solid to build trust and stuff like that. Which I get. Like I think that's I don't think that's wrong necessarily, but I also found that it has had very little impact on my numbers, I think, so far. I mean, I have nothing to compare it to, but I've I'm over at this at the recording, at the time of this recording anyway, I'm at over 600 downloads, which is not bad for 10 episodes of a baby podcast. And um it has done it has done as well as I I would have hoped. And I really didn't have clear numbers goals because I just didn't even know what to expect. And That has been a joy. And what I've also noticed is that partially I think because I don't drop episodes as often, they have a really long tail. Like they just keep getting downloads on on even the first few episodes. It's interesting that that happens. So people are finding them and binging them clearly. So that's a good news. Yeah. usually how I do things, right? don't, I think, you know, streaming services blew up however many years ago. And so we've kind of gotten into this culture of just like binge and release, binge and release, right? And so that's how I usually will listen or watch things. So I think it's interesting, like what you said about, you know, the... quote unquote rules or the status quo about like producing a podcast and how often you have to, you know, have an output and, and, you know, where should you be sharing it and how you should be sharing it. And there's, there's so many rules like that, not just for a podcast, but for everything, you know? em But I think a lot of that is framed within this really toxic capitalist system, right? that manufactures this sense of urgency in us that we have to be doing it at a certain pace, doing it a certain way. But the reality is that what works for one person is not gonna work for someone else, right? Because your conditions might be different, your capacity might be different, your access to resources or tools or finances or whatever might be different. And so I think it's really... uh I think it's great that you're just like, I'm just, I'm going to do it the way that it works for me. Like forget the rules. Like I make my own rules because this is my podcast and I can do it however I want to do it. And it will turn out the way that it turns out, right? Like trying not to force it or whatever. And so along those same lines, like rest and burnout is something that you have been just kind of not. just kind of, like particularly passionate about for such a long time, right? It's your entire work, right? It's the cornerstone of everything that you do. It's your life's mission to just help people understand how to, not just how to overcome burnout, but how to prevent it in the future, right? By building sustainable rest practices. What has changed in the way that you view? burnout and rest since starting the podcast, if anything at all. Like how, and maybe change is not the right word, but like how has your perception or concept, right, of burnout and rest just kind of expanded since doing this new thing? Expanded is a really good word, I think, for it. I mean the one thing that I I because I typically ask people what is their burnout story as kind of the intro when they come on the show. And there is no one burnout story. Not that I thought there was, but the variety of them are are striking. And and some of it is is things you would expect, you know, about burnout, and then other things entirely. Also and I don't know if this is culture wide or just because of the kind of people I ended up having on the podcast, but also COVID is still in there really prominently. How COVID impacted people's choices either burned them out or impacted like or or caused them to say, I'm not going back to that place that was burning now me out. Um And I'm just gonna do my own thing. And I mean, I think some of that is just the kind of folks I hang out with a lot. And that's who was on the podcast this season. Um, but the stories are so varied and not entirely surprising, but um but then also the other thing we've gotten to really wrestle with, which wasn't a new idea, but I think isn't in the common conversation about burnout, is the idea that being passionate about what you do. Can insulate you and can and does insulate you a little bit from burnout because you care so much. It'll help you, it helps you get through the hard things of the work you're doing or whatever. And that's true. It can help you prevent burnout. I think it also causes it, which means it causes us to work too hard because we care so much about what we do. And I was actually just facilitating an in-person conversation before we did the recording this morning. We had that exact conversation that came up. once we were talking about burnout. And this is a fresh group. These were totally new people to me. but one of them brought that up in the conversation, albeit indirectly, but like, and then we chatted about that. So like getting to have that part of the conversation and the nuance, because I want, because this is a podcast for people who want to change the world, right? And I want to sustain them. And I think we need to be aware that that caring, that passion that we have for what we do is a double-edged sword. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I agree 100%. I think, you know, having a passion for something creates intrinsic motivation, right? And so that sense of like, I everybody knows what it feels like to do work that you abhor, that you don't want to do, right? There's no motivation to do it, which that is the fastest way to get to burnout. But that doesn't mean that burnout is inescapable when you're doing work that you love, right? And so we can get so singularly focused that we're just like, we treat it as both hobby and work. And so it's, it almost becomes like this 24 seven kind of, kind of thing where there's like no, no healthy detachment, no healthy boundaries about when to stop, right? When to take a break, when to care for yourself and. You know, that's that saying it, it just it makes me think of that saying like, do what you love and you'll never work a day in your life. No, that's bullshit. It's still work. It's still work. Like it might not be as much work as everything else. Right. Like you love talking to people. You love doing this podcast. So you're passionate about it. It's enjoyable. Right. But then there's still all the other work that goes into it. that may not be as enjoyable, that still takes up a lot of time, that still takes up a lot of mental and emotional energy, and there's still a risk for burnout there. So you mentioned, you know, bringing just theology into a lot of your conversations as a clergy person. So like, how does that inform your perception of burnout and rest? Because we've had some conversations in the past about how toxic organized religion can become sometimes and the ways that it can feed into this like white supremacist capitalist culture, right? The way it kind of overlaps with some of that. And so there's definitely like, you know, for people of faith, I think there's a fine line between, you know, holding onto your faith without it becoming something toxic. So how does that inform your ideas about burnout and rest and like, and how do you like maintain that healthy balance? Yeah, that's a great question. I well, one of the ways I do it, at least on the show, and that I I try to do with my coaching clients too, is is help them, if they don't already know, understand the rest practices that are in their tradition, whatever tradition that is that they come from. And that can be, I mean love that. not all, many of my coaching clients and and a number but not all of my clients here have been Christian who I've had conversation with. And so one of the questions I always ask on the pod is, you know, what is the spiritual or religious sort of under underpinnings to your practice, you know, to your rest practice? And that goes in so many different directions because these are all different people and they have different traditions they were raised in and maybe they were raised in one and now they're something else. Mm-hmm. they don't have one at all. And that's that's a different, that's a whole different way of of thinking about it too. Um, and so I I love having that conversation on the pod. And I think that's a really again, something that I felt was important to me and really something I could uniquely do and that I was comfortable doing. Because I've also done, not only am I a clergy person, but I've intentionally done a lot of Inter faith work in you know, just being in interfaith conversation and circles, not I shouldn't say like not as an activist, but just being part of groups that are interfaith groups and being around intentionally being around people of of a variety of faiths. And I love like I love having that conversation, not surprisingly, because I like being around difference. Um and I find that enriching. And it's always been having that conversation around different different traditions has always enriched my own faith. Like because I understand how someone else It's not threatening to me. Like that's that's how someone else feels about their faith. Um just puts a new lens on mine and helps me understand things more deeply. And that's been true for a long time, not just on the pod. And so that's really something that was really important to me. And so I think it's helping me even understand my own understanding of my faith as it relates to rest a little bit better. And, you know, and honestly, my exploration of this started in the context of faith. One of the first books I read about about Sabbath in this case is a book, a little book called Sabbath as Resistance by a biblical scholar who you may know, actually Walter Bruggemann, because he's very well known. uh It's a tight, Yeah. Yeah, yeah, or heard of him anyway. Like he actually died just this past year. So uh rest in power, Walter Bruggemann, who wrote, who was a biblical scholar and wrote tons of very ex academically academically rich, I will say, but also very small and accessible books that I think are really great. And one was one of them, he's written many, many, was Sabbath as Resistance, which I I read, I barely can even tell you. That was probably like 20. 11, 2012, so a long time ago. It's not a new book, but his basic argument here, and I'm I'm gonna put this in the Nicole language, is that and he talks about the main story he pulled out was the story of the Israelites coming out of Egypt and then wandering in the desert, as they do when you when you read in the book of Exodus in the in the um Hebrew scriptures. And what happens to them is they do all this wandering. And in the wandering, God gives Moses, who gives them these ten commandments. And the first one is to keep is to take Sabbath. And it's the one if in the story that they struggle with the most, honestly, right? Over and over again. They're like, but where where will we get our food? But what will we do? You know, if we don't work for a day, what will and like relatable content, first of all, right? To us. Like, my God, I have this problem all the time. What'll I do if I take a few days off? I won't make enough money this month or whatever. I won't get this client work done. Yeah, yeah. But what he points out is like, think about how radical that is for God to say, God to say, you are my people, and I am saying you rest. And these are folks who were in bondage in slavery and are coming. That is a radical idea. And it's and I as I usually when I'm describing the book, I'll be like, it's like he's basically saying, like, that commandment is giving the finger to the man, is saying, screw you, Pharaoh. We don't need you to survive. We don't need empire to survive. We're gonna survive on our own because God gives us what we need. And I think that's a really beautiful thing to remember. And so that is an underpinning for me, like the radicalness of the practice. is present. I don't talk a whole lot. I haven't talked on this pod anyway about that before. Yeah. example because it also just kind of contextualizes this, the entirety of the idea that like, like you said, these were people who were in bondage. They were forced to work, right? Seven days a week for long hours in order to have their needs met, probably. sometimes barely, right? In rough conditions, like, I mean, it was slavery, right? It slavery, like, and the way that the story goes, right, like, God sent Moses to free them. And so they were physically free, but their minds were still like, I got to work, I got to work, I got to work, I got to hustle, right? And so that commandment, to me, it just indicates how he was trying to free their mindset from that kind of bondage, right? From thinking that they have to earn their rest. They have to earn the ability to be cared for and to take care of themselves, right? And so that's just uh a beautiful story to me about the way that we view ourselves in... Yeah. And the way that we still live in this culture that tells us we have to earn our keep, that we have to earn the ability to be cared for, and we have to earn the ability to take care of ourselves and to make sure that we have everything that we need when the reality is like, that idea that mindset strips us of our human dignity, right? Like we should be loved and cared for regardless of how much our output is. Right. And I think that's what's underneath that as well is like you don't have to earn this. This is just something I'm that I created you for this. I created you for rest. And I think that's uh that's just such a beautiful notion and that's an important part uh became an important part of my of my faith and the underpinnings of what I do, even if I don't talk about it very publicly very often. yeah, yeah. Are there any, so you mentioned that, you know, in talking to all these people and like working with clients, how understanding other people's ideas and practices of rest have kind of just like expanded your own perception. Are there any that you have adopted or have felt like that sounds like a really enjoyable thing to do? Maybe I'll try that one day. Any that stood out? I think this was one I was maybe exploring a little bit on my own anyway, but definitely has taken root in the this was the fourth or the fifth episode, I can't remember, with Jacki Hayes, um, who you may know from some of the communities that Becky has been in. Um Becky is formed in Jacki, uh who is who is a pagan and who's who really attends to the cycles of the the natural seasons and the way that she constructs her work. Um, you know, we talked we happen to record in winter. So we talked about like now is the time that we should be resting. Like this is the time when you slow down, but our culture speeds speeds you up um in those times when you really should be resting. And I've been more attentive, I think this winter, although I don't know that I thought about it consciously as being connected to that, but maybe it was. I was really conscious this winter of when the weather was really sucky, like I'm just gonna slow myself down. I have a vivid memory at some point of like just laying on my couch and I have like windows, the co the way I lay on the couch kind of faces windows that overlook I can't quite see I'm up on a top floor, so like I don't see the ground, but like I can see the tops of trees because there's a park right behind me. And so um one of the things I have started doing more of is just staring out that window. And I there's been at least once and maybe more than once where in the winter I just stared out and watched it snow. Which is not like if you would have asked, like 2011 me, if that was a thing I would do, that's not a thing I would do. No, or I would do it for five minutes. Like, that sounds great. I'll do it for five minutes and then get up and like, you know, make bread or something, which I was probably doing that day too. But like it was a different thing. I was like, I just let myself sit and read and watch it snow and then read a little more and like just sort of chill. Um that was a day I was trying not to this wasn't a new practice that I got from the pod, but Trying not to be on screens. Like that's that's something that I do not consistently, but that I do try to take time and it's so renewing. It's like time slows down when you're not on screens. Because I look at the I'm reading a book or something, or just doing even just cleaning the house or whatever. I'm not on a screen or even listening to a podcast, which I usually am if I'm not on the if I'm not if I'm running around. Like I it's been really cool to to I don't know. It just slows down because I look at my watch and I'm like, surely the day's over. And it's like, no, it's 11 a.m. You know, like it's not over at all. So I also love that's I'll throw that in, even though it's not something people brought up, I don't think, yet on the pod Who knows? Maybe someday they will. But I really like that. Um, I really like that pause as well. But also just pausing for the seasons and honoring where you're and just generally honoring where your body wants to be. Yeah, yeah. the natural rhythms. I know this came up in my most recent podcast with Anna DeShawn Like I talk to her a lot about because she has a weekly pod and that drops at a very particular time every Monday. And so there's even more pressure than there is for me to have a podcast out. And there's been times because I listen to it most weeks, you know, like she'll say, Hey, it was late this week because I had this, or this episode is different. Because these things happened in my life. And we talked about that. I said, you don't have to tell people that. You know, like why do you share that? And so we had this really that but it's important to show up authentically and as who you are. Because she does o she does host a solo show too. So it's a different thing. Like she really is the the driver of that show. showing up as her as her authentic self is important. Um, but also like that's just How we show up is by taking those pauses and saying, I I'm not going to show up as my best self today. And so I'm going to hit pause. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I like that. I really like that. Just staring out the window, watching it snow. Let's just noticing what's going on around you. Like we move so fast from thing to thing that we often don't notice what's happening around us. And so uh I just that sounds exquisite to me right now. I just want to stare out this window right here. have liked it at one time in my life, but I love it now. I also watch birds, which I think is so funny and weird. But what is it about aging that makes you want to bird watch? I don't even know, but there's it's funny you say that because I have, I mean, I still don't consider myself a birder by any means whatsoever, but the older I get, like in just recent years, I'm just like, oh, the birds, they're so pretty. Look at the colors. I think it's just a little bit of slowing down, like if and it's also kind of its own cultural phenomenon right now. But anyway, I digress. This is not what you were asking about is birding. But and I wouldn't consider myself a birder either, but I do pay more attention than I used to. Right. Yeah, yeah. Right. you know, one thing I definitely wanted to make sure I ask you is like, you've had a lot of these conversations about burnout and rest, not just on the podcast, but like in your email list, your Sub Stack, right? With clients. It's, I mean, like I said earlier, it's the cornerstone of everything you do, right? It's your life's purpose. And so, I wanted to ask you, for someone who may just be popping in and may never hear from you again, what are one or two things that you really want people to understand about burnout and rest? If nothing else, take this away with you and just hold it close. Uh, it is not your fault. It's not your fault. Like, we are sold a bill of goods by a lot of productivity gurus and time management people and all of that, that this is somehow burning yourself out as a personal problem. It is absolutely not. It is a system wide issue. And and I've started saying to any group I drop into anymore is that like, No, this is actually the result the system is designed to have. So that's why choosing to rest is such resistance. And why it's so hard? People like self-blame. I have that with clients especially women who think it's like you know, because the wellness industrial complex has like made rest and self-care, this whole thing like an added task on your list almost, which and an expensive, like excessive. Yeah. only if you have the right money, the right clothes, the right whatever. When in fact, I think the the more important part about getting enough rest is actually creating a structure for yourself that honors your body's natural rhythms and that that recognizes the system that we're in and says, okay, I know you want that. And I'm gonna have to work, I'm gonna have to do my internal work to that it'll take to worry less about pleasing everyone else and take what I really need to again show up as as my best self. And I guarantee you, I am not at my best when I am working 24-7. I'm not as creative, I'm not as fun to be around, I'm not. as good of a conversationalist. I'm not all I'm not any of those things when when I'm doing that. So I if you took nothing else from this, from this conversation or from this podcast in general, is that it's not, this isn't your fault. It's a system that's designed to do that. And this is another piece of the conversation I wanted to bring into the world more prominently. Again, on my Substack, on this podcast and other places where I show up and write and speak. And things like that. And I do it really intentionally in the even in spaces where I'm like a little queasy about saying words like white supremacy. I don't have any hesitation with you because we talk about this all the time. But the it gets a little uncomfortable and I'm like, I get okay with the discomfort of that and say it in, you know, this business owners group where I don't know anybody and they're all white people and I don't know what they're how they're gonna respond. And I just I lean into that discomfort now and say, but it's also liberating by naming it as liberating people as well. By saying this isn't your fault. This isn't because you haven't tried the right productivity hack. This is because the system demands so much labor from you and from those who are in women's bodies in particular, the invisible labor of Of the household, of child rearing, of all sorts of things that are expected. And just the way you show up is so adding a layer to burnout that it is just incredible. So of course you're burnout. And almost all of my clients have been women. Like people don't come, men don't come for this. Like that's not I mean, because I think they just genuine like have more people who do things for them. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure, for sure. I love that that's where you went. Like it's not your fault. And so, I think it's so true. Like we try to tackle these systemic issues with personal aah frameworks and it doesn't work that way. And you can't like productivity hack your way out of burnout. That's so like, it's so. all the time and I have too, you know, just be more efficient or just do what and there's some there's some help with being more efficient, but like more efficient for what is my question. Like why? Like, why do you need more efficiency? For who exactly? Right? Who is that serving? It's probably not you at the end of the day, right? I'm all for people being more focused and more productive pro productive at what they care about. So that they can get that work they care about done. But I'm I try to be really clear with people in general when I'm working with them, not just on the pod, that like, listen, this is isn't about you being able to get more done. This is actually about you doing less and doing what actually matters to you and getting getting yourself down to what is the stuff that really matters. I was just leading yesterday, um, I'm teaching my Time Boss course for a a client, and the session I was leading just yesterday was on. Um, I did sort of the planning session of setting priorities and like and calendaring, then you do the skill of calendaring for those priorities, like really taking stock of and and really thinking through the reality of how much work it takes to do that one project or that one thing, because we often gloss over that. We think too often, yeah, we gloss over all of those pieces. And and so I teach one of the things I do is teach people. And that is so anxiety producing for people. And that so that happened again yesterday and it's happened before. I had to learn that in the when I lead planning sessions that uh I couldn't force people just to name one priority in categories. And I even do like categories of things like yourself, your work, your home life, things like that. People flipped out with the idea of picking one priority, even in a short span of time, because they're like, It and it happened like just yesterday this person came and said, But I have this, this and this to do this week. And none of those things were things that felt like they could be dropped. I gently suggested that one of them might be, actually. Like there were two that probably couldn't be, but like if you looked at it a different way, like you could actually think, Well, is there someone else who could do that thing for you instead of you doing it this week? You know, like given that you have these other things out of your control that came up, you know, like The other things were legitimately things that probably only only she could do, but yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. that's, that's interesting. Yeah. It's like we, we think we can lighten the load by adding more to our plate. And it's like, uh, that's, that, that's actually the opposite of what you're doing. I heard someone say once, um, think I either read it in a book or maybe I heard it on another podcast, but, um, that when we're thinking about like all the things that we're carrying, all the things that we have to do, right? Like, people will sometimes use the metaphor of like all these balls are in the air. Some balls are rubber and some balls are glass, right? And so if you let them fall, they're gonna fall, right? There's gonna be fallout, right? But some of them are gonna bounce back and some of them are gonna not bounce back. And so, and I think that was a really helpful perspective for me to just like understand that. Reprioritizing rest does mean that some things are gonna like, like there is gonna be a fallout, right? And I think sometimes we think, oh, I can let go of things without there being a fallout, right? Like if I can just figure out a way to just like make it all work without nothing bad happening, then I can rest, right? But it's like, no, like sometimes you have to. let a little bit of bad things happen in order to be able to like take care of yourself. It's just, you just get to decide how bad, right? How big the fallout is based on whether or not those balls are rubber or they're glass, right? Or they're gonna bounce back or they're gonna shatter. uh I think what you were saying just now just made me think of that. it's like, we struggle so much, I think as humans to just like let the ball drop. Yeah, yeah. Again, we're I mean, again, especially people socialized as women whose conditioning is to pick up all the balls for everybody. We're so conditioned to be the one who's like, oh, I'll grab that, I'll grab that, I'll grab that from you, right? They're constantly doing that, whether they're glass or rubber or whatever, right? Like they're constantly grabbing those. And it's so hard to let that's where perfectionism, I think, comes in. You know, like part of Part of the the facade of per perfectionism, I think, is like, we have to grab all the balls because none of them can ever drop. People can't think that I can't handle this, right? That I can balance. I mean, I think particularly in kind of the the phase of feminism that we're in, you know, that we that women really feel that pressure still to perform at the Top the like beyond top level for that matter, because they have to prove themselves at work. And then you also have to be this like ideal parent, right? If you have children, um, or just ideal partner, like you have to be that person and show up absolutely perfectly, and you have to have well-maintained home in a very particular way. Um, you still have to be attentive and care about your friends and like All these things that are simply impossible to do well all the time. I mean, I don't know about like it's sort of dish I'm old enough now that it's starting to shift, but I don't know. The people who I my good friends from, you know, when I was young, when they started parenting, I didn't talk to them that often as much. When their kids were little kind of yeah, they do. And I mean, I have some that we made like intentional about being together on a fairly regular basis though. But like That has massive impact because they just have a million things going on and they're focused on parenting, and that's okay, and that's normal, exactly. And like and because I don't have children, I do try to show up for those people as much as I can when I can, but in some cases I don't live where they live. So Auntie Nicole can't come over and just take the kids for an afternoon, right? Yeah. As we are getting close to the end of this conversation, I did want to ask you as well, like, what's one rest practice that, like, you've been especially leaning into lately that's kind of been sustaining you? Right now, and this is this is also very seasonally dependent. Like it is early June in central Illinois where I live and it has been unusually gorgeous weather. You know, normally by now it would start getting really hot and I my body just doesn't tolerate the heat like it used to, so I would be like I'm mad now I have to stay in and be in the air conditioning or whatever. Um it has been really gorgeous and have lovely cool off at nights, and so I mostly have the windows open. And like just and not necessarily even like I used to be go outside and do a lot of things like running and whatever. Not that those are bad, but like my body just doesn't let me do that anymore. So like I just spending time as much as I can outside. Just doing in whatever way that I can, if it's sitting on a porch or a deck, or like I said, there's a park that's out behind my apartment building. going out there and there's a picnic table out there like just sitting there and I'll sometimes go for a walk, go to the park, like sit there for a little bit and try not to have a podcast or anything on. Like just sit and listen to whatever the breeze through the trees and and chill. Just being outside um is really energizing to me. Or yeah again, porch sitting or deck sitting when I'm I have to be somewhere else because I don't have a porch or a deck here, but going somewhere um when I can do that. do that. outside is when I'm leaning into a lot now. And the one I also highlighted our earlier, which is like just being really mindful of how much I'm on screens. I have a digital business. I am on my computer a lot. All the time. And I'm really trying to find I'm it's just an ongoing both struggle and experiment and how to stay off. Like shut it off and let it be off. And and not even watching TV like both you and I talk about TV a lot. We both like watching television and movies. And I do love those and I get energy from it. But I also need a break from that screen too. So going from my t computer to my television screen is probably not the best rest method. So that's why I do most Fridays I don't watch television. Even if I have to like I'm not doing the full tech shabbat like I and I have to be on my phone or whatever for some work related reason or something, like uh, or just personal reasons. Like I will I make Friday a night, I don't watch television. Hmm, hmm, I like that. felt like it was gonna be hard to at first and I'm like, you know what, it's not that bad. Like and I can fill three hours with any number of things. It's really not that yeah, reading, taking a nap, taking a walk, calling a friend. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, no. Okay, so last couple questions. Is there an organization that you have been like really wanting to support or just have kind of thrown some of your energy behind that you want to share with folks? Oh gosh, that's such a good question. And I ask it of everyone and then I didn't even think about it in preparation for this. Um there's so there's so so so many that I care about. Um There's actually a number of these, and I will definitely drop some links to all of these because I'm not going to remember all the names. But I've really gotten interested and curious in both the local organizations that I have as well as uh national organizations that do work around immigrant rights because that's so threatened right now. Um, like I've made connections here in town with an organization. That's a subset of the University YMCA, actually, but they call it the New American Welcome Center. And I drop that link to that org if people want to give to that. They do really good work at um at helping new folks settle here in this community. Um, but more recently, of course, doing a lot of training around know your rights um and that additional um kind of work. So that's that's something that I care a great deal about. And then there's been a number of not, and I'm not remembering them all off the top of my head, but I'm on a lot of email lists. And I'll find a couple more of those because I think they're doing really important work um in a time when people feel when when people who are new newer immigrants or even not newer immigrants, people of color, are feeling threatened right now. And so that is more more important than ever. Thank you for sharing that. And then uh finally, like what's next for the podcast? Like, what are your plans? What are your dreams? Oh gosh, that's a fun question. Thank you for asking that. I didn't expect that one either, but I'm thrilled to answer it. So I'll be wrapping season one very shortly. This will be one of the last three episodes. I have one more interview that I'm gonna do with someone else. and I will do a concluding. This is a this is new information I haven't told anyone outside of a few people. But I'm gonna the final episode is gonna be a compilation of everyone's Dear Rest Rebels comment. It's a c it's a standard question I have with my interviewees. And so I asked them to say, hey, what would you say to our listeners, Dear Rest Rebels, fill in the blank? And so I'm gonna pull that out of all of those interviews and make a little compilation for our last episode. And then there's gonna be a bit of a break. I do have some other content I'm gonna drop. I am. I'm gonna do some rest and actually get ahead of the recording before the next season drops. I know, surprise, surprise. I'm gonna actually get it a little bit better organized for next season. Um, so I'm going to I'm gonna take some time to rest and plan and dream about what that next season will be. I think one of the things that's really uh that I haven't done as much of this season that I would I wanted to with this is talking more. organizationally, like how this rest can work in groups, in organizations. I did a little of that with some of the people who have roles in that way, you know, but I want to get even more intentional about having those conversations because like I said earlier, it's not an individual problem. This is a systemic problem. And how for those of us who care about those, about um liberating ourselves from those systems, how do we do that inside an organization? And so I want to have more of those kinds of conversation. The other thing that's coming up, which is another big change, and I might as well just say it here, starting in September, I'm starting a year of living nomadically as a way of living it's scary and exciting, and living in a way that is that is different than what people normally do. And I am hankering, first of all, just hankering to travel. I just haven't done as much as I like to do since um COVID, really. I haven't done as much. So that's part of my motivation. But the other part is I want to experiment with how to live differently. uh and I said this originally, and and I've had a lot of people ask me that like, is this to help you figure out where you want to live next? And I'm like, Well, somewhat, that is true, because mostly work has dictated where I've lived. And I've lived places I have genuinely enjoyed living and I've lived in a bunch of different places in the US. Um but what is it to pick a place based on what I want and not what a job tells me I should where I should go? Um that would be great. But also to say, but how can I live that differently? And maybe it doesn't mean it may mean not having a home base. Maybe this is how I want to live for a while. Maybe not forever. I mean I think probably my age and health and stuff will will change and dictate Mm-hmm. for now, I still have the ability and I want to do this. And how can I make that work for myself? And so that I think will probably show up in the podcast. And I don't know exactly how. I do know that I'm planning on doing probably a private video blog, like a video log or a uh maybe writing to or a little of both in for Just Rest Sub stack subscribers. Mm-hmm. it's a way to fund the year because one needs consistent income in order to do this weird traveling thing to some degree. Um, but also because I want to share about it, but I suspect it'll make that'll make its way maybe into a couple of solo episodes as well. Yeah, that's what we got on the horizon. I'm excited. So probably sometime in fall, September, October, I'll start dropping the new season. Exactly. Yeah. I love that. Yeah, I remember hearing you talk about this idea of doing a little bit of nomadic living and ah just seeing how those conversations have turned into, well, or have evolved from, this is something I want to try to like, this is something I want to try. And I have this amazing community that's being so supportive of it, right? Like just like being able to like connect with people in a new way that like helps you rely on them, but also helps you just kind of deepen your relationships with them. And so I'm looking forward to hearing about that. Yeah. My word my guide words for the year were support and ease. And um I'm really leaning into the support part of that with this little endeavor in particular. But what's so interesting is that as soon as I mention it to people, first of all, they're like, that's so cool. Like no one is like they may not feel it's for them, you know, because some people it's not for them, but like, but they think it's they support it and oh Almost always someone has a suggestion, you know, for how to do it, or oh, I like up into and including like people who have said, I know somewhere you could stay. Like, do you want to go here? I bet you could go and stay with it's often people's like parents, you know, like, hey, my mom lives alone out here and go visit them for go live with them for a little while, or go here, or people who have a house they don't live in all the time, or I just had a a brief exchange. This isn't an official, but like a friend who needs help with they have a a small farm and need help with animals at certain times of the year. Um, why don't you and it's a good friend of mine. So like come stay with us, you know, come stay here and and we can it enables them to travel, actually. Like I could stay in their house and it enables them to get away, which they can't normally. So like things like that have been cropping up and like every time I mention it, people are like, I'll think about where you can go. You know, like so it's been like not that hard. It's amazing. it's not just, it's not, you know, I think sometimes people, or as humans, we, I say we, because I include myself in this, it's like, we feel like it's a burdensome thing. Like we've become a burden to people when they offer or they suggest things like that. But one, it's... Again, it's an opportunity to deepen the relationship, to deepen those bonds, but it also could be mutually beneficial. Like that person's elderly mom who lives alone, right? Like you're providing her company for a short period of time, right? Like it's an exchange of uh partnership that otherwise wouldn't exist. And so I think that's a beautiful thing. Yeah, it is. I'm really looking forward to it. Yeah. And that's that's how I'm offering it up is like, hey, here's some of the things I could do with, you know, for you and with you and um, you know, let's have a little adventure for as long as you wanna have me in your house. Right. Yeah, yeah. Well, this has been such a good conversation. I've really enjoyed just listening to you talk about what the experience has been like and what's coming up next for you. Like, I'm so excited to hear more about that and to see it unfold the way that I've been able to just kind of sit back and watch this unfold, this podcast unfold over the past several months since and even before that during the dreaming and planning phase. And so thank you for asking me to have this conversation with you. It's a privilege and an honor. And I was like, oh, I feel so special. Yeah, for sure. And you were honestly the first person I thought of because you're such a good you asked such good questions and I knew we would go to deep places and take me in places I didn't expect and all of that. So that's why that's why I asked you. But can I ask you for one more thing before we stop? Would you be willing to doing the dear rest rebels um question before you leave? so what would be something you would say to the listeners out there, the people who are listening to this podcast, you know, about rest, about uh about rest, about burnout, you know, Dear Rest Rebels What is the note you would write to them? yeah, okay, all right, I'm ready. Go for it. I would say, Dear Rest Rebels, rest doesn't have to look one way or another. It can look like whatever you need it to look like at any given point in time. Maybe it's taking a nap. Maybe it's cooking your favorite meal with a glass of your favorite wine. Maybe it's gardening. Maybe it's going to the movies. Maybe it's work. if it's something you're passionate about, maybe because you've been putting it off for so long, it looks like just getting that thing done that you've been putting off that will lead to even greater and deeper rest. And so don't formalize it. Don't, uh, don't beat yourself up. If it doesn't look like what somebody else's rest looks like, let it look like what it needs to look like for you based on what your needs are. That's great. Thank you so much. And thank you for your time and energy and being willing to share your gifts with me and the Rest Rebel Collective. and thank you all listeners for listening to this conversation. And I'll remind you as we close out that you are worthy of rest.