Overwhelmed by Your Calendar? ADHD-Friendly Systems for a Busy Brain with Jacki Hayes

If you’ve ever sat at your desk thinking, Why is time management so hard for me? … or Googled something like “ADHD time blindness” after being late again … or whispered to yourself, I’m so disorganized. Why can’t I stick to a schedule? — this conversation is going to feel very familiar.

Because what if the issue isn’t that you “can’t manage your time”…
What if the systems you’ve been handed were never built for your brain?

In this conversation I’m joined by Jacki Hayes, operations and systems strategist, to talk about ADHD and neurodivergent planning and the burnout that happens when your nervous system becomes your project manager.

We explore why traditional time management advice often fails neurodivergent women — especially Gen X and elder Millennial women  — juggling careers, caregiving, leadership and way too many invisible responsibilities.

This isn’t about becoming more productive.

It’s about building humane systems that reduce overwhelm and actually support your energy.

What We Talked About

• Why ADHD time management advice often increases shame
• The real reason planning feels overwhelming
• The identity trap of “I’m just disorganized”
• How simple backend systems reduce executive function fatigue
• Why structure protects creativity (instead of killing it)

Chapters

00:00:00 Introduction
00:00:38 Introduction of Jacki Hayes
00:03:06 Moment for a Deep Breath
00:03:35 Jacki’s Journey: Two Burnout Stories
00:10:28 Jackie’s Spiritual Grounding to Rest
00:14:02 Typical Objections to Planning & Administration
00:15:53 I just don’t have time for planning!
00:19:40 Creating “emergencies” for the Dopamine Hit
00:23:26 Procrastination and the ADHD Brain
00:28:29 Planning & Administration Take Time Away from Human Relationships
00:31:15 Creating Human Safety through Automations
00:40:23 Planning for your Personality
00:46:11 3 Questions: Rest, Resist, Dear Rest Rebels
00:50:45 Organization Doing Good: One Iowa

Meet Our Guest: Jacki Hayes

Jacki Hayes is an operations and systems strategist who helps service providers build businesses that actually work for them. She combines Human Design with smart, customized strategy to create simple, energizing systems for leads, onboarding, and delivery. She’s also the host of Here’s What I Learned, a podcast about doing business your way.

Connect with Jacki

Website
Instagram
LinkedIn
Threads

Connect with Nicole Havelka

Newsletter
LinkedIn
Work with Nicole

Resources & Links

• Calm Calendar Club — If you’re ready for a slower, saner approach to planning your life and business, this is for you.

The Calm Calendar Club is a brain-friendly planning community for neurodivergent adults, ADHD minds, and sandwich-generation caregivers who are tired of systems that don’t fit real life. We help you build a flexible, values-based calendar that reduces chaos and protects your energy. This low-cost, community-based program is ready for you at defythetrend.com/calm-calendar.

Thank you to the people who helped make this show happen.

Send me a message via Speakpipe.

A proud member of the Feminist Podcasters Collective.

Transcript

0:00

Welcome to Just Rest, burnout tips for everyday radicals who are tired but not giving up. I'm your host, Nicole Havalka, bringing you tips and inspiration to help you feel seen and supported on your radical rest journey. Let's go. Nicole Havelka and I'm the host of Just Rest, Burnout Tips for Everyday Radicals. And this is a podcast for world changers who are tired, but not giving up. And today I have the pleasure of being with Jacki Hayes, who I am so excited to talk to today about some of our human tendencies to... avoid or put off or find excuses for not doing planning or other administrative tasks that can often help us do the things we want to do, but that we tend to avoid for one reason or another. And I know that I have my own silly little habits about that too. So this isn't my special session, Jacki, I promise today. So here's a little bit about Jacki and then I'll let her add anything that she wants to add to this. Jacki is an operations and system strategist who helps service providers build businesses that actually work for them, starting with the behind the scenes systems that support creativity and freedom. And her work combines human design, which I'm just learning about my human design, so we can talk a little bit about that. And uh combines that with smart custom strategy to help clients manage lead onboard clients, deliver services in ways that feel like energizing, but not exhausting. And sometimes it can just feel awful, right? So, so she's known for a no BS approach and her ability to make complex systems feel simple. and her gift for asking questions you didn't know you needed to answer. And that's why I'm having her on the podcast for sure. And she's also host of a podcast that I really, really like a lot. And it's called Here's What I Learned, and a podcast about doing business your way and as a true manifesting generator. If you don't know human design, you may learn a little more about that in a minute. She's usually juggling a few creative obsessions at the same time. And I love mentioning things that people do when they're not working because that we are fully human, right? uh When she's not doing all this systems thinking, which she loves to do, you'll find her reading smutty fantasy novels, uh bouldering or hiking somewhere off grid, all of those things I'm totally in favor of. So welcome, Jacki. It's so wonderful to have you today. Thanks for having me on the show. Absolutely. I'm so glad to have you. So before we get started, and I hope folks are getting used to this happening as part of the podcast, I'd like to start before we launch into our main part of the interview and learning more about you, I'd like for you to, like everyone here, both Jacki and myself and anyone listening, to take a deep breath before we get started. So why don't we do that? Take an inhale. Make out as full as it feels right and then exhaling. And I have been saying this every time, but that always makes me feel better. I don't know about you. But yeah, calms down, gives a feeling of being more settled. So Jacki, tell me a little bit more about your story and what brings you to starting your own business around system strategy. And I'm wondering, is there a burnout story in there somewhere because I've said this for other folks who I've interviewed who are actually in sort of this work that I do around helping people prevent or recover from burnout. So they almost always have a burnout story, but I'm starting to suspect that nearly every small business owner has one too. I'm wondering if there's somewhere in there in your story of like leading you to do this work, what's happened and what changed for you in order to get to that point. Yeah, so prior to starting my business, I spent 14 years working at a local university, um doing all kinds of support and an academic office. And it was a 45 minute drive, 45 to an hour drive. Add on to that, taking my kid to school beforehand, all of that. um I was also at the same time, a single mom, uh volunteer coaching his soccer team. and working on my master's degree and fitting in time for my friends, all of those things. I always, people were saying to me, I don't know how you do it all. And I was like, I just do. it took me a very, also getting up to go to the gym at 5 a.m. So, you know, all of the things. And it took me a really long time to realize that I had burnt myself out because it was just how you function. It's just how that's life. That's if I want to get all the things in, that's what I got to do. And like almost everybody else, I've run across COVID happened and completely changed everything. So this work that I did for the university, I'd been there so long. I'd gotten so good at my job. am, you know, I'm a systems person, so I'm pretty darn efficient. I didn't have very much work to do in a given day. Like I could get it all done in a couple of hours, but I was having to sit in an office for eight plus the commute. So then when we got to work from home, it was like, oh, wow, life is just calmer, easier. you know, I still expected to respond timely, but you know, I can get up and I can go do the laundry or whatever. And when it was time to come back into the office, I thought, yeah, I can't do that to myself again. I just, can't. And so that's when I started out as a subcontractor for a VA agency and things have evolved since then based on the skills. that I have, the strengths I have, and what my clients em appreciate out of what I can offer them. But it really came down to like, just can't keep up that lifestyle anymore. I need to be able to be more in control of my schedule with who I work with, what times I work, how I start my day, etc. Yeah, yeah. So then what shifted then when you did take that leap and say, I'm going to subcontract and eventually starting the business that uh you also have? Tell me more about that. What was that shift like going from... That's like a 12-hour day, right? Like at least five days a week between getting your kid to school, commuting 45 minutes either way, and being forced to stay at a desk for at least eight hours, right? Even if you weren't doing things, right? And going from that, but I'm guessing there's still yet another shift that happened because you weren't even having to pretend you were working for eight hours a day. then, right? And then you were jumping. So what was that like? What did that feel like? Yeah, when that moment hit where was like, yeah, no longer had to pretend because you basically like you have to pretend. And they were really just, you know, paying me for a butt in a chair in case somebody walked in the office is really what it was. You know, if the FedEx guy shows up, I need to be able to sign off on something. That's why I'm there. So then when I was working from home and none of that had to be the case, you know, it was really enjoyable. And I probably would have stayed with it indefinitely because the benefits were fantastic. ah It was great schedule. I didn't have to market anything. yeah, when it was like, you have to come back into the office. was like, this freedom is just, I can't give this up. ah I started with the subcontracting and I did what a lot of people do. I stuck in that 40-hour week mindset. and filled up my roster of 40 hours of work a week, with clients, not realizing that when you are billing by the hour, um, 40 hours is just a small portion of your work week. There's all this other stuff that has to happen after. So I actually burnt myself out in like that first, you know, six to nine months of being a VA for this agency. no fault of their own. kept saying I can take on more more clients um and then realized, wait a minute, this is different than 40-hour work weeks. 40-hour work weeks still account for getting up and going to the bathroom, getting up and chatting with somebody. You don't actually work nonstop for 40 hours. then having to have that shift and it was causing me to work even longer days at home. I had to step back a little bit and reassess my money goals and my client load. If I continue to work um as a subcontracting VA, it was going to limit my income, so I was going to have to have more clients than I felt I was comfortable having. That was one of the reasons I went out on my own is because I had more control over all of that, the amount of clients, what I charged. And then it also, as I learned as a VA, I always jokingly say the weekly meetings I have with my clients where they were supposed to give me all the tasks that I was supposed to do for them in a week turned into strategy calls. And it was like, okay, well, that's what they value with me when they're working with me. Let's use that and move forward with that. hearing are like two burnout stories, really. Like you would probably burn yourself out on that old schedule that was just unsustainable to begin with. But then going, well, surely I can book more clients. It'll be fine, right? Just keep booking them. When you're like, wait, no, but you have to build them now and you have to build on the time for all those other things that you learned that you have to do as a small business owner or anyone who's running an organization of any kind, you would have to think through all of those layers of stuff. if you don't have a staff team to do all of that for you. If you're a small enough um organization or team. So one of the questions I also like to ask, because this is just my bent, is like, is there a spiritual, religious or like cultural foundation to your rest practices, the way you rest or the way that you're, we're talking mostly about schedule management, but like even around managing your schedule. And I know when you're, uh in your bio and all over your website you mentioned using human design. I don't know if that's a factor in all of that or maybe you have other influences as well. Yeah, so I've been a practicing pagan since my early 20s. ah And for those who are not very familiar with it, it ties a lot to nature and the seasons and learning to realize I live in Iowa, so it's very temperate. We have all four seasons. It's very cold in the winter, very hot in the summer. There's a reason why. January and February is just hard to get going. It's because I'm not supposed to be. Everything else is sleeping. It's perfectly fine if I do too. So learning to consider that in my life, it has been incredibly important. I just was having a conversation with somebody about the new year and I'm like, new year doesn't start for me really. I mean, yes, it starts January 1, but I'm not going to get really gung-ho about stuff until like March when spring starts. You're like, start thinking about it at the beginning of February, but it's not until about the spring equinox that you're going to see me really going. And then it's from like spring equinox till Halloween is, you know, all of that. Now, as a manifesting generator, for those who do know uh human design, you know, we are like... energizers, batteries. We have 400 things that we're wanting to explore. uh We want to do it now because as soon as we have the idea, we have to do it now. There's a little bit of uh reminding myself that even though I can't, it doesn't necessarily mean I should because we have a tendency to go all out and then we have to hibernate for long periods of time. I can either work with that or I can... which is what I tend to do because that's how I'm naturally wired to. But I remember that my goal all out is not nearly as much in January as it would be in June. No, and I honestly wish the rest of the world would learn that too. That we try to do so many things, especially January, but even now, and we're recording at the beginning of February, like even now, it feels like things are just too fast for the season. I guess I've become more more attuned to that too. Like I quit trying to schedule like any kind of event, like any kind of public, even a webinar, something as simple as that, until at least the no earlier than the third week of January. at all, if at all in January, because people just, they were coming off of that like stretch of holiday usually, and trying to get their brains back online. And like you said, this is just a slower time. Like everything is slow. everything is wanting us to sort of sleep more and lean into that. Just let it do that. Let's just do that. ah And I know this year the weather has been super cold and I'm also in the Midwest, so of the United States. So yeah, that's just something that's happening. That's for sure. Yeah, thank you for sharing that. That's so exciting. I'm changing a little bit from how I've done things in the last few episodes of the podcast. And this is only number five, friends. So like, The pattern is still evolving as we go along. But the reason I invited Jacki uh to join me today is because I'd like to talk through some of the typical objections that both of us get from people when, especially the kinds of folks that we work with, these are do-gooders, these are people who really want to do important, purposeful, meaningful work in the world. tend to be very people focused people. That's not bad. None of that is bad, by the way. But then the sort of systems or administration stuff feels weird at minimum and sometimes feels like it's in opposition to what they do. And so I have like three sort of typical things that Jacki and I hear from folks when it comes to like their objections to planning or taking the time to even do background, you know, like the backend work that they might have to do. And I thought we would explore those a little bit, like both exploring like why, you know, the why of where that comes from for people. And I know that varies from person to person, but we can talk a little bit about that. But also to say, hey, maybe there's another way to look at this too. So let's let's talk through a little of those things. And we can even talk about what hangs us up to because neither of us, even if we're systems oriented people, We have our own foibles, right? We have our own hangups and hookups. So we'll be honest about that, friends, I promise. That's part of this thing is that no one here is trying to be an all-knowing guru for sure. First one, this is the one that I hear very often. Like, you know, I know I should do more planning, but I just don't have time. Like, where it comes out as... You know, there's always something more pressing happening. There's something in the moment that is getting my attention that feels more like an emergency, right? So talk a little bit about that. First of all, let's talk about where does that come from? Where does the feeling of that come from? I think, you know, from a lot of my experience and the people I've worked with, We think things are emergencies and they feel like emergencies and they're not. and part of that is just, you know, the waters that we swim in, what we're told is important and not important, what is an emergency, non-emergency, how much of the thing that is an emergency is you people pleasing because for some reason or another, hello, waving my hands here. But I think the very first thing to consider is, is this actually an emergency? Does this actually need to happen right now? Does it even have to happen at all? Like what would happen if it didn't? You know, like what's the worst thing that can happen if you didn't do it right now? But I think what people don't realize is that if you don't do the planning, more emergencies come up because you're always in reactive mode as opposed to being proactive. So if you can step back and give yourself some time to do the planning, to think about. You know, if A happens, what needs to happen, BCD. A lot of times, those things that keep coming up as emergencies will completely disappear because you've already thought about how to address them and they're already done. I don't know, Nicole, do you have the same example? Yeah, I mean, that's definitely once I can get people to do plant, like I host quarterly or have been hosting quarterly planning sessions, for example, and the people who do them and if they haven't done them in the past, even if they're people who tend to be planners, this is really interesting. They tend to then say, wait, things aren't catching me by surprise as often. If I do this advanced planning. And one of the things I think is a really important antidote to this, and to some degree, the people pleasing problem that you just mentioned that I think maybe I'll put a pin in and maybe we can come back to in a moment because that's a really important one because I think that's really common for especially for people socialized as women, frankly, to be oriented toward other people's needs all the time. But people, if they do the planning are grounded in their priorities and values. And they have a different sense of grounding. And I think are better able to say no when that impulse to people please or that impulse to address what everyone else thinks is their emergency that's coming up, like is coming up and it kind of ends up on your desk. And that's, bet you lived with that for a long time as an admin, right? Like that's sort of like, you could say that that's sort of your life in a way. You're like, everybody's just sort of like. Hey, Jacki, I forgot to tell you about this thing I could have told you about a month and a half ago, but here I am today with that thing that needs to be finished by five. And by the way, it's 1230 or whatever, right? Yeah. So how do you address that with clients and helping them make that transition? Because I think that's the part that's hard. If you're used to being reactive, your nervous system is wired for a particular thing and your habits are just wired for a particular thing. Yeah, think drop a pin on that wiring and habits and such because there's a dopamine hit that can happen when things are on fire um that we get used to. um then when that is gone, sometimes we create things so that we can still get that dopamine hit. I think about when I talk to my clients who are getting ready to start onboarding team members, And they're like, well, it's just going to take me so long to document this, or it's just going to take me so long to train somebody to do this. I might as well keep doing it myself. And yes, it will take time to document it. It will take time to train somebody upfront. But if you want to stop and pause, let's consider you're doing this, you know, for two hours every single week. And it's going to take you five hours this week to make sure you documented it well so that you can train them. Okay, so this week it did take longer, but now let's subtract two hours from every week forward. Maybe, maybe not at the beginning, because they're going to have some questions for you. They're not going to get it completely right the first few times they do it, but eventually, you know, you're saving yourself at minimum eight hours for that one task. And so it really comes down to that aha moment of like, what can I do with eight more hours? I mean, they could rest. That would be one thing. uh would be great thing. like that has always been my favorite thing to hear from clients. You know, they start working with me and they're like, I took my very first weekend off since I started my business. Or I took my very first vacation and I didn't take my laptop with me. Yeah. And did your business fall apart? No, it was fine. Yes. So I think having that experience of that free time helps. just once, a little taste of it, and then they're like, oh, okay, let's keep doing this. I like this. I want to have more of my time back. But sometimes it takes an experience of having even just a half hour back of their day for them to get how important it is. Yeah, yeah. And actually, this relates to something that's been, I've noticed as a theme coming up in the conversations I've had for this podcast, and maybe even before, but it's really been noticeable to me in the last couple of weeks, that it's also about creating a sense of safety for your body in that. Like the reason that your body is still being reactive is because it feels safe doing that. That's how it's making itself feel safe. And Thank your body for that, by the way. There's a habit that was formed in your body because of stress or trauma or both or whatever that has served you in some ways. So let's not dismiss that, that way can serve you. And because there are legitimate emergencies that come up and you're gonna need your body to be able to rise to that occasion. But we don't need to make everything like that. You're right, most things in an average sort of office or workplace or business or whatever is not an actual life and death or emergency. Almost nothing is actually is what I would say very little is or it doesn't hinge on us. I'm like, I'm not an EMT. And those folks are on shifts for a reason, because you can't sustain being an EMT or a firefighter or those people who have to respond to legitimate emergencies. That's why they're on shift and they have time off and then they come back. But yeah, so let's go back. You had said put a pin and I did write it down this. What is that process that's happening then with the dopamine hits and why do we self create then these situations where we're running behind and we need that hit again to be able to do it. Yeah, I've noticed, I work with a lot of folks who are neurodivergent, especially ADHD, and they need more dopamine. They just physiologically need more dopamine than folks uh who are neurotypical. And so they will find a way to get their dopamine. And a lot of times that is procrastinate, quote unquote procrastination, waiting till the last minute so they can have that rush. at the very end of things, which is in a sense, creating an emergency or a fire to put out type of a situation and helping them find other ways to get dopamine hits is a part of the process of, know, if you're going to wait till the last minute, that's not going to work if you need to start bringing on team members. You can't give them something, especially if you're working with contractors and not employees, you can't give them something and expect them to have it turned around in two hours. So you're going to have to start planning ahead. And I work with a lot of folks who are building out their team and that is something that they really have to learn is to find ways to get that dopamine hit in other places so that they're not using last minute work to get it. And sometimes, you know, I know somebody who uses a specific project management tool because when she checks it off, a unicorn appears on the screen and it makes her so happy. She's like, is the only reason I work with that tool is because I need that dopamine hit of seeing the unicorn. So sometimes it's that. Sometimes it's checking something off on a piece of paper. Your body becomes wired and if you're neurodiverse, your body needs more of it. So you're going to just have to find it in other ways and build it into your systems. Yeah, I know that I have a client also who's fairly recently been diagnosed. And one of the things we've worked on is creating systems where there's a lot of smaller tasks rather than bigger ones. that gets, first of all, overwhelming. And that can happen to almost anyone, right? Like if you have what is really a project that you're calling a task, right? Those are... And I only recently started telling this to people like anything, anything with more than one task is a project, even if it's two. And so it's probably better for you to break those things down just again, to help your brain out anyway. But if you need those quicker dopamine hits, you need the little unicorn that dances on the screen or whatever the bell that chimes or whatever the thing is doing that more often is going to help you rather than. freezing up, right? Getting into that place where you freeze up looking at a bigger project or task. Or in my case, like I'm thinking about it, like all the time because I know that big project, but I haven't dumped it out anywhere of my brain yet. And I need to put it down and getting all the deadlines in the right place and be like, okay, now I can breathe again, because I know I've saved space for those things I need to get done. Well, and we live in a world that is constantly bombarding us. And it's very rare that any of us let ourselves be bored anymore. And we're, I mean, we're doom scrolling for a reason. There's dopamine hits with that. So, you know, one practice I've been doing for the last few years is when I go to the doctor's office, when I get into the exam room, you know, you have to wait for who knows how long, 10 to 30 minutes, whatever it happens to be. I don't let myself pick up my phone. I just make myself sit in this discomfort of boredom. Because I was like, when I was a kid, I am 50, so that'll put some perspective on this. I was bored all the time and I had to figure out a way to entertain myself. And sometimes I was just making up stories in my head. Boredom wasn't a bad thing. And they will say for creative folks, you need boredom to be creative. So learning also to sit in those moments of discomfort, of boredom, of being in your own head or having to entertain yourself or whatever it happens to be, I think is something that goes a long way in helping to. Yeah, yeah. I know I did something similar to that. I uh last weekend got in a grocery line that was long. Like I went at one of the peak times, which was a bad idea. At that point, I didn't need my grocery list anymore. I was done. So like, okay, then I'm going to set it down, give myself a screen break. You know, a long line is really five minutes or something, right? We think it's a million miles long. It's really not that long. Like these little breaks from and letting your brain and your body that for that matter, unfurl is the word I've been using a lot lately, like unfurl from all of that, the dopamine hits from, which is really a stress response. That's actually kind of not great for our bodies to be in that constant cycle. you might be used to it, but it really is hard on our systems for sure. Here's another one or another variation on the the sort of challenge that people often have, which is like, you know, planning and administration and those kinds of tasks take time away from relationships and human contact. I get that particularly, you know, I'm a clergy person in the United Church of Christ. I have a lot of friends and colleagues who are pastors, especially local church pastors, or any of our friends in the business world who are coaches, who are very people oriented. Right? they, this is, and again, we're putting this in the basket of not bad things. You care about people and you want to put them first. And, and as feminist business owners, we put people before profit. And that's really important. On the other hand, we're saying people before profit, not people before having good admin necessarily. Right? So what, how do you respond to that? If people have that objection or if that's just sort of like legitimately coming up for them. Well, there's two things that I would normally say. The first is you don't have to do your admin and your planning in a vacuum. That's what we all love the coworking for and body doubling for. There's no reason why you can't reach out to some of your biz besties or your in-person friends and say, hey, I need to work on my quarterly planning. If it's somebody local, let's go to the coffee shop and we'll chit chat for a little bit and then we'll work for 25 minutes and then we'll chit chat for a little bit more. you don't have to do that stuff by yourself. You can ask people to join you in it. And the other thing is, you know, a lot of times with the admin stuff and the planning, I will like maybe build in some automations. And I always hear people say that makes it less human. It actually frees up enough time that I can be more human because I have more time to give people because an automation sent out that email that did not need to come directly from me. And it can make actually things more human in that like one of my automations for my onboarding, it will go out and the form asks, do you want a discovery call? If it says yes, it asks, do you want a zoom call or Google meet, whatever it happens to be, or do you want to do it over Vox or async? And depending on what they choose, it automates a message to them to schedule it. If they don't want to discovery call. then we just go on to the next step in the onboarding. If they do want a discovery call, I don't have to be the one to read that to then send them the link and repeatedly do that with everybody. And they can choose the kind that's best for them. That saves me so much time. If I did that with every single person, I wouldn't be able to do. It allows them one, to choose what works best for them. If they don't want a discovery call, that's great. We're not going to take the time to do that. We'll just hop right on into the project. If they do, if it makes them feel safer to work with me to have one, then I have that available to you. What works better for you to be on Zoom or to be async? Okay. So I'm creating more of a human centered approach to my onboarding by making things more accessible and safe for them. Yeah, I love that. Because I've even had people say to me about things like a online calendaring system, like what you're describing, even something as simple as that, like, oh, I'm exchanging emails with someone and I say, hey, schedule on here. I've sometimes heard the, it's usually roundabout, but I usually hear the feedback that, oh, that's impersonal. Like that's impersonal. I'm like, so you'd rather be interacting with me for 17 emails to find the time that works for us. I mean, that doesn't feel terribly personal to me, first of all. And it's taking time away from me having being relational with someone that actually takes time away from my ability to have a call with someone or to do a visit or to um lead a group or whatever the whatever the thing you is, the thing you need to really do besides the the admin part. And and I also love setting up automations for things that don't need to need to do every single step manually as well. And you're right, it you said this, I think, the first time too, is that it feels like it takes a lot of time on the front end. And that's true, to some degree, right, you're going to spend more time building that thing. And learning how to, in some cases, maybe learning how to do it if it's a system you've never worked in before. But that goes away at some point. you pass that off to another person or you've passed that work off to an automated system that can just do it all for you and say, here, this is exactly how it needs to be. em And it's all done. I know just a quick example for myself, like I'm just starting this podcast, which means I'm building up the systems to make this more sane for myself. And it's painful, but I'm trying to document. Okay, these are the steps. This is what's usually happening so that I can pass off this client, you know, the guest onboarding system to my VA, you know, so that she knows how, okay, this is what we do in these different circumstances. And here's the, you know, there might be one or there are one or two emails that I do need to customize, but really most of them are automatic. That can be automatic. It enables me to spend more time researching who Jacki is, who my guest is, asking better questions, having a better podcast, and enabling us to get to know each other, like as a whole community. I call the folks here rest rebels. know, the rest rebels get to know each other better. And I can spend my time on that, not on making sure all the emails got sent at the right time, which I'm currently doing. It is making me a little batty, but again, I'm documenting so that I begin to pass that work off. Yeah, I learned something uh great from uh Brandon Drake. He does CRM work and he had a form that anytime he networked with somebody, if you really wanted to stay in connection with them, he would send them this form and they would fill it out. And so I was like, I'm going to adopt this and I use Airtable to track all my leads and contacts and relationships. And now I have this form that I could send to somebody. And it asks them, like, give me your bio. What would you like me to, how would you like me to introduce you to somebody? Write that down. What links would you like me to share with folks? What kind of connections are you looking for? Are you wanting to be a podcast guest, a collaborator? you looking for clients so that it's easy for me to quickly go in and be like, oh, somebody's a podcast host and they're looking for guests. Who on my list is looking to be a guest on a podcast and I can bring them up. It took time to set that up. But it's allowing me to be more human with those relationships. I have an automation if I happen to know their birthday. It sends me an email a week in advance to say, so and so's birthday's coming up. So they may have mentioned it to me once three years ago, but they're still going to get a happy birthday from me this year. you're letting systems remember things for you. I know that when I was in seminary, had a, when I was doing an internship, had someone, my supervisor there tell me that caring is remembering. And the reality is that most of us don't have, you know, we don't have photographic memories. Some do, and that's great if you do, but the majority of us do not. And so how, what are the systems that you have for remembering because remembering someone's birthday, remembering those details about how they want to connect, um knowing which way is the best way to communicate with them is something that then you don't have to keep in your brain. But you're caring and you are creating a system that cares enough about them and honors who they are that you're like, again, you make a system that remembers for you, even if it's not all in your mind, a database or some other kind of system can because that's Literally all it does is keep data for you and reminds you of doing things. Ideally, Yeah, I love that. you know, even I, and I'm, I'm still getting better and better at this. One of the things that I've, I've adopted that took me a long time to figure out how to do with my business, but then I've applied this to other things in my life is like, keep, here's the person I'm contacting with. When did I contact them last? When do I want to talk to them next? And like, what's that next step that I want? Cause I probably am not going to remember. There's too many people, but I can pull up a spreadsheet and say, who do I want to contact this week? That I can do pretty easily, even if it's manual emails, but at least I'm keeping track of all of those people. But you could even go a step further and be like, I want this person to get this email at this time or whatever the case may be. Last thing that we tend to, that Jacki and I both tend to hear, this can extrapolate to a whole organization sometimes. especially newer or smaller ones will tend to be like, we're just not, I'm not an organized person or we're not an organized group. Like that's a choice that you're making about what kind of culture you have in your organization. But people do it too, individuals, I'm just not organized. And I just don't think that thing, it's just not for me. Like that's just not how I'm gonna roll. And uh I think that one's a really tricky because that's an identity piece for people and it's really hard. As we all know, if there's something we think about ourselves, it is really hard to like unearth that. So how do you work with that? I'm even curious for my own tips and tricks here. How do you deal with that? Yeah, my very first question is, why do you think that? Because generally what has happened is somebody grew up ah hearing that they were disorganized from teachers, from parents, whatever it happened to be. And what it really means is you're differently organized, not you're disorganized or not organized. It means that somebody judged how you organize things as not the right way because it didn't work for them. And a lot of the work that I do with folks is helping them find ways that work for them, not somebody else. um I often say, if you're in the online space running a business, always hear about all these tools you should be adopting. This project management tool or this CRM or whatever it happens to be. I love tech, so I like to adopt them all, but that's because I like it. I'll have clients say to me, well, but it just works so much better with a piece of paper and a checklist. It works. Why are we changing this? I'm like, get it if you're going to start bringing on a team sometimes, you know, there's going to have to be adjustments because you have to be able to communicate certain things differently. But if this task here is working just fine for you, why are you judging it as not organized, not the right way, whatever it happens to be? Because it's working. So, you know, I may look at somebody else's desk and be like, I don't know how they find anything. And then I'll ask them a question and it takes them no time at all. Like their pile of paper over there isn't nicely stacked, but they know exactly where it's right in the middle and they can pull it right out for me. And I know for some folks who, again, are neurodivergent or have ADHD in some cases, that tactile feeling of the thing is actually way better for them than a million tech reminders that they might have that can get, I mean, on one level, it could give you a little bit more dopamine. On the other hand, can easily, it can quickly become overwhelming if you do too much with it. So tell me a little bit more about if you, so, is using human design or again, if anybody's preferred personality system, like how would that impact your work with with someone then like, so let's say like, I'm just gonna use myself as an example. I've only recently learned this. I'm a I'm a generator. We really like to finish things, apparently. And then on the Enneagram, which I know you also have on your your website, your Enneagram type, which I know a little bit better as the Enneagram system. I'm an eight with a seven wing. Mm. I also like to get things done in that personality type, em but heavy generators of ideas, at least in my personality type. I can generate a million ideas and want to finish them all because that's sort of the way I think. In fact, you don't have to finish them all. You don't even have to start all of them. Using that as an example, like what do you do? em Either for me or if you want to use a different example than that generator type. how would you, do you have someone do that personality typing if that's useful and then say, okay, this might work better for you. Is that something you might do? Yeah, yeah. Usually, I will ask folks to provide me with their Enneagram, their human design. Those are the two that I work with the most, but also Clifton Strengths, if they know their Myers-Burton. Whatever they know. Even if I do astrology, very... I don't know that much, but I know enough ah that if that's what speaks to them, we can work with that. And then, of course, I always ask them what rings true to them. because they're not 100 % universal. Like not every description of a Capricorn 100 % fits me. The elements that ring true for me are the things that we need to consider. So when it comes to human design and specifically, so if I were to say on board a manifestor versus a projector or reflector, manifestors are ready to go. Like do not put pause. Like the second they sign, they want to start the project. Okay. Well, I need to remember if I'm working with the manifestor. that they're going to want that. But if I'm working with a projector or reflector, they need time. Some need just to wait for their emotions so that, you know, maybe it takes a couple of hours, usually more like a couple of days. So they need to pause a little bit before they sign that contract. They need to sit with their emotions. You know, maybe the other is going to need 28 days. They need like the whole moon cycle. I I'm not going to make them feel safe if I'm bombarding them with reminders to sign a contract if I know that they're going to need the 28 days or the 48 hours to do that. So knowing that about my clients helps me serve them better, also helps me set up systems for them better. Because if I'm setting up a system for a projector, like I would set it up for a manifester who is ready to go, going to finish the thing, going to be done. or a generator who again is that energizer battery keeps going, going, going until the thing is done. It's not going to work. It's just not going to. Enneagram, I'm an Enneagram five. I need all the information in the world and then some before I feel comfortable going forward. But I'm a manifesting generator, which means once I get going, I just keep going and going and going and going um until I find the other thing that has got my attention. And that's one of the reasons I set up the business the way I have is I discovered, like, I like doing the thing until I know it works for a person. And then I don't want to do it for you anymore. So like I'm in there for short-term projects. I'm not in there for like doing it forever and ever because that's not how a manifesting generator works well. You're just not going to get the best of us. um Yeah. So that's some of the ways that to think about when you, when you set up systems for yourself, think about how you naturally work, not the way you should work. the way you naturally work. if you were, you know, ask the clients at one time who was having a hard time in getting uh something done and it was like, okay, I want you to think about an area of your life that you never have a hard time completing the task. What is it about that task? What is happening? Is it the time of day? Is it the task itself? Is it the way that you remind yourself about it? is it, you know, if maybe it's drinking water. Do you have multiple water bottles sitting on your desk so it's easy for you to drink? You don't have to get up, you're shortening the obstacles, whatever it happens to be. You got to think about how things work naturally for you and then build around that. I love that. And one of the things I love to do, and I actually just had this conversation a couple of days ago with someone that I'm like, I really like working to find the thing that works for you. I don't have, and it's frustrating for some people, I don't have this list of here's the 10 steps that I'm going to give you to success and succeed in time management or getting enough rest in my case. I don't have that because what I do is I work with you as a human. knowing that the way you're going to do that is different than the way I do that, than the way you do that, and anyone else does. And so let's work on a system that works for you and the way your brain and your body prefer to work. And I love that question. I'm really bookmarking that for myself even like, how do you naturally work? Like if you were, if you set aside the ways that your team works or the way that you think you should work, how would you just set it up? And I think most people stop themselves from doing that because they think that they can't or shouldn't for whatever reason. Now I know we could keep having a conversation about this forever and ever for sure. So I conclude with four really questions for you that are a little bit quicker hopefully than the ones we were just getting our hands dirty in. And what is one way that you rest? And that can be very simple. can be as much as that tiny little break that you take to stare out the window or putting. You already gave us a really good example by in a doctor's office or waiting room, you don't look at your phone, you just let yourself be bored for 10 or 15 minutes. But is there any another kind of way that you rest that you really enjoy? Yeah, one of the things that I love about owning my own business is I get to have my slow mornings. I'm a morning person, but I am not necessarily very human. I get up early, but I need my time to be coherent. So I love just having my mornings where I lay in bed. The alarm may have gone off, but I don't rush out of bed. I sit and enjoy my breakfast. I may journal. I may read. I take my time before I start my day. It's the best way for me to rest. And then what is a way that you like resist, particularly one thing maybe we haven't said often enough in this conversation is that like there is a system that people sometimes call grind culture, but it certainly is embedded in toxic capitalism to produce like that our value is all about in is all wrapped up in what we do and what we produce. And so how do you resist or liberate yourself from that? Is there some practice you use for that? Yeah, I think one of the things is I'm very strict. I track my time that I work, not just what I work with my clients, but what I work in my business so that I can see how I'm spending my time and how much time I'm putting towards my business. And so I have a, like, these are the number of hours a week that I am willing to give for my business. Sometimes it's going to go over because of some project that's happening. But for the most part, I try and stick in this timeframe. And then if I find that I'm having on a regular basis, trouble sticking to that. Then I go back to look at where did I spend most of my time? Okay, I'm not being very strategic about how I'm using this period of time. There's a reason they call them power hours. It's amazing what you can get done when you give yourself an hour. So, you know, to look at that's one of the ways that I've built a system for myself. And I'm also a big fan of tracking time and becoming aware of how much time things actually take you. Cause we often don't know in the beginning. I often work with clients on that. Like, well, do you even know how much time that thing is going to take? And they're like, I don't even know how to block that. Like I've had people say that I'm like, okay, then let's put a certain amount. Like let's triple the number that you think it's going to take. Put that down and then, and then in the cockpit and then we'll find out what is, what is really true. And hopefully we can come out at the reasonable amount of time that it might actually take you. And so I mentioned this just a few minutes ago that I like to call the folks in my, my sub-stack community and listeners of this podcast rest rebels. And so, and one of the things I like to do in this podcast here toward the end is like, give you a chance to say, tell them a note or write them a note, starting with dear rest rebels. Like what would you say to them in the context of our conversation today? Yeah, so I think, and I know you would get behind this, is listen to your body. We all have our own unique individual ways that our body starts to tell us it needs rest uh before you are just passed out into exhaustion. For me, I'm highly distracted. So if I find myself not being able to focus for even a minute or two, I know that my body is, it needs me to pause whatever it is that I've been doing. shift gears into a lower speed. You sometimes that means I need to step away from work that day because I'm not going to do good work because I'm just not because I'm exhausted. So it's become incredibly helpful for me to start recognizing that so that I don't get to burn out again. And I'm all about teaching people to listen to their bodies. So the system trains us to not recognize them, to ignore our bodies so that we will continue to power through. We power through those things. The only way we power through is by ignoring the signs that we need to stop. And so finally, is there an organization that's doing good in the world that you would like to highlight and want us to support? Because I give a small donation as a way of thanking you. for being here on the podcast and um I'm compiling a list that I'm going to add to my website of all the great organizations doing good that my guests suggest that we support. For me, it would be one Iowa. uh I am located in Iowa and unfortunately in the last several years, have not been, our legislation has not been LGBTQ friendly. And one Iowa specifically works towards changing the legislation in Iowa so that the LGBTQ community in Iowa can be safe and we can be ourselves. We can live life as ourselves. freely and safely. Excellent, thank you. And I will be uh giving a little donation to One Iowa. And as someone who has lived in Iowa actually at one time, em I definitely have a heart for that as well. So thank you for sharing that. So I wanna thank you, Jacki, for being here, for being willing to spend your time and your energy on this podcast and sharing your... knowledge and expertise with the rest rebels in this community. So I appreciate you very much. And thank you for being here. Thank you so much for listening to this episode. Remember, rest is not a retreat from the work we do in the world. It is the work. So if you're ready to rest and resist, here's what to do next. If you know someone who's running on empty, please share it with them. Hit subscribe wherever you're listening so you don't miss a single episode. Rate and review us so that other radicals can find us. Consider joining us on Substack at defythetrend.substack.com where you'll find bonus content, tips for everyday living, community connection, and resources to keep you grounded. Radicals remember, you are worthy of rest.